The Catholic community in Nigeria and across the world would today rejoice, as Pope Benedict XVI installs Archbishop John Onaiyekan as a cardinal. Ahead of his installation, the new cardinal spoke with Saturday Sun in Abuja.
You have just been appointed cardinal, Your Eminence. What is the feeling like?
The feeling is more or less thanksgiving to God, who decides everything. I know that to be chosen as a cardinal is not something that the Pope does for everybody. So, I believe that this is special calling. As for the feeling, honestly, apart from the surprise and joy, there is nothing much special really, especially as I have had many occasions in my life when God has done wonderful things for me. This is just one of them.
Were you actually surprised?
Eeeeeeeeeeeh yes! Yes! Surprised because it is not that one can say he deserves it. Nobody deserves to be a cardinal. I want to believe that the Pope and those who have advised him have their reasons. So, I respect their judgment.
When you took the decision to be a cleric, did it ever occur to you that you would go this far?
I had only one ambition in my life and that was to be a priest of the Catholic Church. And that ambition was achieved on August 3, 1969.
1969?
Yes. When I became a reverend father. Since then, every other thing has just been addition.
Where was your first place of service?
After my ordination in my hometown of Kabba, I was posted to the town of Isanlu, by just 14 miles at that time from Kabba, where I had double jobs. On one hand, I was teaching French and the Bible Knowledge in St. Kizito’s Secondary School; and on the other hand, I was also along with a Canadian colleague, were also running the parish. So, I combined teaching with pastoral work for one year. After the one year, bishop came and asked me to move to Lokoja, to run the junior seminary there as the rector.
Did you set out to be a priest or your parents influenced you?
No! Your parents cannot make you a priest. They might encourage you, but they cannot make you a priest. The decision to be a priest or the desire to be a priest is my own, which I expressed to those who should know and those who should know, advised me on how to go about it till it came to the notice of the bishop who takes the final decision.
So, your parents were Catholics?
Very good Catholics. Not only Catholics, my father was the head of the Catholic Church in Kabba. The Baba Egbe of Kabba. So, I grew up knowing myself as being in the Catholic Church, went to Mass every morning because my parents did. We went to Mass every morning as from early childhood as an altar boy and from altar boy, I grew to love to be a priest.
What was the attraction?
What attracts people to the priesthood is that there is an element of mystery. Mystery, in the sense that you can’t really explain, but mystery more in the sense that it is God who does it. We believe firmly that there is such a thing as Divine calling and I see myself as only called by God to this kind of life. And it is because we believe that it is Divine calling that we face it with enthusiasm, with joy, with courage and even when we have problems and difficulties, we take in our strides, knowing that God is still in charge.
Priests have orders they belong…
(Cuts in) No. Not every priest. A priest is first and foremost, a priest before you ever start thinking whether you are in one order or another. You are first and foremost a priest and we are all priests first and foremost. And most of us are what we call diocesan priests. We are priests of different dioceses. Some of us joined religious communities in which case, we have different kinds. We have the Dominicans, we have the Jesuits, just like we have our own Missionary Society of St. Paul, with headquarters in Gwagwalada. That is a tradition in the Church, especially that these groups are the ones that specialise in going out to the mission to preach the gospel. I was ordained as a priest of Lokoja Diocese, although I didn’t work too long in Lokoja since I was sent to teach and to be rector in Ibadan very soon after my ordination. And since then, I have never worked at home.
Can you recall the number of stations you worked?
It is not difficult to recall. It is just that it is one thing after another. I told you I started from St. Kizito’s in Isanlu, where I was posted as a teacher in a secondary school and an assistant parish priest to a Canadian colleague. And after one year, I was moved to Lokoja, where I was running the seminary there. That was my full time job. Again, that one was for one year. At the end of it, my bishop sent me back to Rome for studies. I did that for four and half years. I returned again to same junior seminary, St. Clement Junior Seminar, in Lokoja, again, as rector, to continue the same work I was doing before I went to Europe for a doctorate.
So, I came back with a Doctorate in Theology and my bishop sent me back to the same institution, that is, St. Clement Junior Seminary. The seminary is still there right now in Adankolo Lokoja, very close to the river. It almost got flooded during the flood. After a year and half in Lokoja, my bishop offered me to the Ibadan Episcopal Conference and I was sent to my alma mater, the Saints Peter and Paul Major Seminary, Bodija, Ibadan, where I went as vice rector and later as rector of the major seminary. I was there for six years. It was while there that the Pope appointed me bishop and I was sent to Ilorin.
What year was that?
In 1982. Around the month of September 1982, I was appointed a bishop. My intention was to be ordained in Ilorin to which I was appointed, but just before the ordination, news came from Rome that the Pope would want to ordain me. So, I ended up being ordained in Rome in January 6, 1983, and I came back to Ilorin as Auxiliary Bishop of Ilorin, a job that I did for two years. In 1985, the bishop, an Irish, a wonderful missionary, Bishop Mahony, retired and I was appointed Bishop of Ilorin, a job I did until 1990. It was in 1990 that I was transferred from Ilorin to Abuja, as Co-adjutor Bishop of Abuja. Co-adjutor bishop means a bishop that is appointed not only to assist, but to understudy a bishop who is about to retire.
By the time I got here, Cardinal Ekandem was almost finishing his tenure. As you know, in our Church, after 75 years of age, you retire. I came in here when Cardinal Ekandem was already 74. So, we knew that within a year, he was going to go and I also knew by the nature of my appointment that I was going to take over from him. So, when he retired in 1992, I became the Bishop of Abuja. I became bishop of Abuja because Abuja at that time was a diocese and not an archdiocese. It was only in 1993 that Abuja became an archdiocese and I was appointed the first Archbishop of Abuja. And since then, I have been here. 1993 till now, 20 years.
So, your longest stay of your service in the station has been in Abuja?
Abuja.
And during this period, you served as the CAN President…
Those are other things. But my basic job is that of the Archbishop of Abuja. As Archbishop of Abuja, my colleagues, the Bishops of Nigeria, elected me first vice president and then, president of the bishops’ conference. And all these, six years in each case. For a period of 12 years, I was in the leadership of our Catholic Bishops’ Conference of Nigeria. About the same time, my colleagues in West Africa, English speaking also, elected me first as vice president and then, as president. As if that was not enough, my colleagues in Africa, we have an organisation of Episcopal Conferences of the whole of Africa and Madagascar, I was also elected president of that organisation.
So, there was a time when I was actually three presidents, on three different levels. It wasn’t too difficult to combine because it was not as if one was president of two organisations that were entirely different. No. They were linked to each other. And eventually, one after another, I finished my tenures.
Your days have been more of service, by way of leadership. What have you learnt from leadership?
First of all, every priest is a leader because nobody is ordained a priest if he doesn’t have leadership qualities. You notice that all the priests are running parishes and they are leading their communities. So, by the very nature of our vocation, we are all leaders. Of course, among the leaders, there are some who are more leaders. And that is how from just being a priest, I became appointed and every time, it is appointment to service. Appointed to run seminaries and to train young priests. And there too, I was made a bishop to run a diocese and work with fellow priests for the growth of the Church wherever one is assigned to.
You have been very outspoken on national issues, especially when you were in CAN. But you have also had some people at the last time the CAN election held who felt you were not speaking up enough, prompting the Pentecostal fold to bring up a candidate. Were you disappointed given what happened?
You are asking two questions. The first question is what you called my being outspoken. Let’s first talk about that. A priest is supposed to be like a prophet of old who should tell the truth. Whatever I said, whether, in terms of commentary on Nigerian pitiful situation or the way rulers behave, is purely and simply in the line of the prophets who tried to announce God’s will to the people. And when you are deciding to talk in the name of God, there is no question of whether you are timid or not outspoken. You are to speak openly.
You speak openly not because you want to embarrass anybody, or not because you want to appear better than anybody, but simply because you believe firmly that it is in the interest of the people. And even in the interest of those to whom you are speaking; that they do things well. And if it is a matter of rulers, you have to keep reminding rulers that the rulers are supposed to serve the people and not to oppress them and to do so with honesty and integrity. You just have to say it. We really have no option beyond that.
As for the issue you are raising on how the elections within CAN went, I would rather not remark or comment much on that, except to say that we have a term of office as President of CAN. I was elected for three years and at the end of the three years, the constitution of CAN has provisions to either renew your mandate or to elect somebody else. The CAN National Executive Council decided that they would rather have another person and at the end, decided on a change. The change did not surprise me because if you talk of disappointment, it is not as if this is a job that belongs to me that somebody is taking. The whole thing is a matter of service. I offered to serve for three years. The second time, I made myself available if they wanted me, but they decided they would rather try anther person, which is what has happened.
Taking a look at our country, would you say the advice that you offered or other priests have offered, have been taken the way you expected?
You see, the problem with our country and our leaders; means partly everybody because everyone is at leadership at every point or another. The problem is not that we don’t know the right thing to do. We know the right thing to do; so it is not ignorance. The problem is rather, the will to do the right thing. So, even when we give advice, they know already what we are saying. It isn’t as if we are saying something that is not known. When we say, for example, that if you have, under your control, the resources of the country, take what is your own due and don’t steal the rest, you have every right to get a good salary.
Take your salary and spend the rest according to how it is supposed to be spent. They know that! They know that! In fact, they even take oath of office, especially those who are in political appointments. The civil servants, who are very up for mismanaging accounts in offices, they know it is wrong. They know! As you know, everybody is complaining about corruption. Everybody! So, it isn’t as if they don’t know. The question with us then is, how can we in Nigeria work towards a situation where people really decide to do the right thing? That is our problem. And until we do the right thing, things wouldn’t work well.
Things cannot work well when the wrong things are being done day in, day out. People think they are getting away with corruption, with dishonesty, stealing and at the end if the day, everybody suffers, including themselves. When you create a situation when there is practically generalised illegality and disorder, then don’t be surprised that nobody is safe. There is insecurity. And it doesn’t take too much really to decide to follow rules and regulations, to take what is yours and not more, to be satisfied with what is yours and not pile up peoples money in private accounts abroad where you will never need them. Stupid acquisition! This is our failure around us and I do not know how we can change it because if it is a matter of teaching people, we have talked enough.
Let’s get a little bit into your background. You were born into a family. How many siblings?
Ah! My mother had nine children; two died in early childhood, but we are seven of us still alive: four boys and three girls or four men and three women. I am number two. The first alive is a woman. And we lived together in that big family and learnt to be united with our parents. One good thing about a big family is that there is a sense of belonging. The older ones help the younger ones to grow and the younger ones respect the older ones as they grow. It is something very beautiful. Those who are just one child of a family, I don’t know how they manage to grow because when you are growing in a big family, you learn how to live in a community and you learn to live with others. And that was how I grew up.
What primary and secondary schools did you attend?
I did primary school in the village. In those days, we had no special schools for children of the rich. In any case, if we had in those days, my father would not get anywhere near it because my father was a farmer. We had only two schools in town: Catholic school and Anglican school and all children went to the same two schools. All children were those children who went to school because at that time, those of us who went to primary school were just few.
I started primary school in 1949. In my class, we were not more than 20 of us in the whole village. The rest of the children were going to farm everyday. After primary school in Kabba, I went to secondary school in Benue State, St. Michael’s Secondary School, Aliade. Even that too, at that time, it was just for a few who were lucky to get to secondary school.
Just to give you an idea: the whole of Benue State at that time, and I entered secondary school in 1957. The whole of what is now Benue State, in fact, had only two secondary schools: St. Michael’s Aliade and the Government Secondary School in Katsina-Ala. These were the only two secondary schools in the whole of what is today Benue State, where now, you have hundred secondary schools. If you take my own present Kogi State, which was at that time, Kabba Province, by the time I went to college, I can only think of two secondary schools in the whole of Kabba Province.
That was Okene Government Secondary School and one college called TITCOM College run by the SIM in Egbe. There was no other secondary school. So, when I finished primary school in 1956 and I was to go to college, I wanted to go to a Catholic secondary school. In the whole of the then northern Nigeria, which is what is now called the northern states, there were only two Catholic secondary schools for which I could choose. You either went to St. Michael’s Aliade, or you went to St. John’s College, Kaduna.
Today, it is almost impossible for us to imagine what it is like. And when people keep telling us that education has fallen, the good old days, I said wait a minute; what is good old days? Who was those days? If we are talking of the good old days, then most of the children today will not be in school. But now, at least, most of the children are in school. When I finished secondary school, even at that small school, we were not more than 200 students in both schools and we came from different parts.
From Kogi State, from Benue State and from Nasarawa. There were few of us who managed to get to college. In my final year, we were just 22 students who sat for the school cert. and I remember very well that in the class of Physics, were six of us. We all got very good training at that time from European teachers who taught us science. I still remember very clearly that we were doing all those scientific experiment with all the equipment available to each and everyone of us the way that undergraduates don’t see these days. So, this was the kind of time we had. When you look back and you say beautiful, it is beautiful but beautiful but very, very beautiful. I don’t think we want to go back to that.
But the quality was there?
The quality was there, but there is no reason the quality should not be there, even today. It is just that when you have things getting too many, the quality at that high level becomes difficult. Their tragedy, in the case of Nigeria, is that when government began to have money and started to pump money into education, they did not take enough steps to manage these enterprise, as they ought to do. And unfortunately, they did not continue to welcome the participation of voluntary agencies in the running of the schools.
So, it turned out that these schools were turned over to government functionaries, some of whom did well and some did very badly. But at the same time, they could have also allowed the voluntary agencies, both religious and non religious, to also participate in this project and continue to run schools funded by government with the kind of careful attention to quality as they have always done. It was only because government refused to continue working with us that we ended up setting up private schools. It was not the intention of the Church to be running private schools for the children of the rich. And the situation we have right now is one that I thoroughly disagree with. We cannot just do nothing; so we had to open schools. We opened private schools and we are running them very well. Everybody knows and if I give you the result of the Christ the King College (CKC), last year, 100 percent everything.
CKC Gwagwalada?
Gwagwalada. Excellent results. Even my girls in Regina Pacis, beautiful results! Not to talk of Loyola Jesuit College. And we did not admit them as gifted children. We admitted in those schools, ordinary children. The only problem is, since we didn’t get any money from government and we have to pay teachers, the fees were to cover our expenses. And so, only the rich could send their children. And we have a terrible situation now in Nigeria, whereby those who run public schools never send their children to their own schools. You have a situation whereby a principal of a government secondary school will send his children to another school run by private individuals.
Doesn’t that show you that there is something serious here? The Minister of Education, if she has children of school age, she will send them abroad for university and not in the university, which she is managing. In other words then, the public schools are there for the poor people. And God does not distribute brains according to how much money you have. The result is that very brilliant children are wasting away in public schools and never emerged with their talents because they have not gotten the environment to bring them out.
This is why I have been saying seriously and I have made specific suggestion to the Federal Capital Territory (FCT) that they should look at those private organisations that are running schools already and see how they can encourage their operations in such a way that poorer people can enjoy what we are offering to the rich.
We are not saying give all the schools to us. No, no, no, no! Government will still run schools, but they will be talking of public-private partnership. This is where it should work. I am hoping that eventually, we will find some people in government who will begin to understand what we are trying to say. That doesn’t stop anybody from running a purely private school which takes no money from government and whose schools are made and prepared for the rich. All over the world, there are such schools that are elitist schools. But when you have an elitist school doing wonderful things, you must also have school for the ordinary people.
Are we going to have a situation whereby we see His Eminence working in Rome instead of Nigeria?
It is not impossible, but it is not immediately the case. I was appointed Cardinal and Archbishop of Abuja. Well, I remain Archbishop of Abuja, but the Pope can, at any time, transfer any bishop to anywhere.
If my record is right, I think I am seeing the 4th cardinal from Nigeria?
Yes. One has gone to Heaven.
Cardinal Ekandem…
Cardinal Ekandem, my predecessor here in Abuja.
Then we saw Arinze…
Arinze went to Rome as an archbishop, took on a job and a job that was generally carried with it, the title and the dignity of a cardinal and he was made a cardinal a year or two after he got to Rome. Cardinal Okogie was appointed a cardinal as Archbishop of Lagos.
So, do we hope the Almighty will smile on us and will give us a Pope?
The Almighty God will always smile on His Church and give His Church a Pope. Where he comes from, is completely in the hands of the Holy Spirit.
Now that you are a cardinal, what do your people stand to gain?
The position is not a matter for benefit. You might even ask: what benefit do I get for becoming a cardinal? I get no benefit from being a cardinal, except of course, that you people think that I am a big man (general laughter). And now, maybe we dress differently, different colour of dress and then, people do give you respect, Your Eminence and so on. But basically, it means that you are being called to service in the higher level of our Church. Now, this may not necessarily bring any specific, particular benefit to the Archdiocese of Abuja. In fact, on the contrary, the Abuja Archdiocese will not have me, as often as they would want, because this position will make me travel to Rome quite a few times.
On the other hand, you might say though, that being a cardinal and working closely with the Pope at that level, one has a more authoritative cross-idea of the Church and that will have its impact on the way I run the Church here in Abuja. And from that point of view, Abuja might profit.
Beyond your belief, what principle guides you in life?
Very, very simple. Just trying to do God’s will. That is all. And as you know, my motto as a bishop is, ‘Thy Will Be Done.’ And I was living my life all the time trying to find out what is God’s will for me. You know it is a very simple principle, but it is very profound. And it is not a principle that is difficult to operate. Luckily, generally, we can know what God’s will is. If there is any problem at all, it is our inability to pursue it vigorously and consistently.
Have there ever been times you suffered pains for insisting on doing God’s will?
If you suffer pains for insisting on doing God’s will, it doesn’t pain you any more because you know it is for God’s will nau (laughs). What you suffer, either you suffer or you enjoy for God’s will is a joy. Maybe what you are saying is whether there are times when one suffers some kind of liability, some kind of…
Maybe sometimes you are at your low point in your career and you say how I wish, did I make a mistake?
No! No, no, no, no.
Or when you look at children, your brothers, your siblings; when you go to them…
Or I look at my classmates who are ministers and so on?
Yes
When I do that, I also look at my classmates, who are still farmers in Kabba (general laughter). Many of them, and I thank God.
So, how often do you go to Kabba?
Unfortunately, less and less, I do try to go. When my father and my mother were alive, I used to make it a point to visit them because it is part of God’s law. You must honour your father and your mother. When my father died and my mother died and then nobody left at home and my visit home became more rare.
Were they present when you became a bishop?
Yes. Both of them were there when I was bishop and when I was an archbishop. But as a cardinal, they were in Heaven. I told them in the Church that I dreamt on the day that the Pope made me a cardinal that I saw my mother dancing with Mother Mary in Heaven.
Would you say the Federal Government has heeded your advice in tackling the Boko Haram menace?
Under whatever circumstance, it is always better to talk than to shoot. It is always better to talk than to go into violence. So, if the Boko Haram, whoever they are, because right now, I don’t even know, who they are. If those who are behind the terrible things namely: killing of innocent people whether they are Christians worshipping in Church, or they are villagers in their markets, or they are security boys, people in their checkpoints, or they are policemen in their police stations, as you know, they are killing everywhere. If we find anyway to stop it, we should pursue it as much as possible.
I have no full information about the whole story, about this alleged readiness for discussion. I am hearing of terms but I do not know what those terms are, and I am not in any way involved in how it is going. All I can say is that if they want to talk, it is a good thing. Welcome! Let’s talk. Conditions? They can say whatever conditions they like. That is the essence of talking. You know when you are talking, you give your condition, I give my own and eventually, some reconciliation will be achieved. So, the Boko Haram has every right to demand whatever they like. But this time, they will be demanding it by mouth and not demanding with AK47, killing innocent people. Let them make whatever demand they think they want and then, the rest of Nigeria will also have an opportunity to reply to them. And together, we will arrive at a conclusion. If you can ask for whatever you like, you should also realize that others will have reasons to ask for whatever they like. This is the whole point of discussion.
In this whole question about discussion with Boko Haram, you know there is the major problem there that they have killed many people. And as you know, there are some who say you cannot start discussing and negotiating with murderers. All things being equal, anybody who has killed anybody deserves to be killed according to our law. This means, strictly speaking, those who have been killing innocent people, don’t forget, those who have been killing innocent people, really have no right to be coming forward and saying we want to discuss because they have been killing innocent people. It is like an armed robber who hides after killing people and says well, ok I am ready to discuss. What will be the reply? But what about the man you killed?
However, maybe the Boko Haram people think that they were engaged in a legitimate battle in which some people died. Well, too bad if people are dying. Like in every war, when Bush and co. invaded Iraq, they killed thousands and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. If we are to go strictly speaking, we will tell Bush to come and explain why he killed Iraqis. He was looking for Osama Bin Ladin. So, in the case of Boko Haram, we might have a situation where we would say even if you have killed people, let’s put that aside for the time being.
Provided you decide not to kill anymore, we will discuss. But it doesn’t help to pretend as if nothing wrong has been done. That is not what we call dialogue. There must be an admission of some guilt. You must admit that you have been killing people for no reason and worst of all, that you have been killing people who are in worship and who have done nothing to you. Those people must admit that whatever idea that entered into their heads, which made them think that they were doing something good or even that they were doing God’s will for going to kill people, who were worshipping their own God, they should admit that no, we were deceived or we didn’t know what we were doing.
Maybe these are the things that will come out during any kind of discussion. And for as long as anybody continues to say that they were doing the right thing, or they say it is because Jonathan is in power or it’s because poverty is worrying us, those are no good reasons for the kind of criminal activities that they have engaged in. I pray that the discussion will start and maybe, generally, this kind of discussion may not necessarily be face to face. There may be some roundabout way; there maybe some people whom we know very well, whom we can respect, who are able to speak with Boko Haram.
Let them go and discuss with them and bring to us, the rest of us, what they are talking about. And since there are people who Boko Haram will listen to, then they will carry back what are saying. But in all these, while they maybe some elements of confidentiality in the discussion, this matter concerns all Nigerians and it should not be wrapped up in history. The rest of us have a right to know what is happening.
Talking about the report presented by the Nuhu Ribadu Petroleum Task Force and the Fuel Subsidy Report, where will you place the claim by the government that it is fighting corruption?
The two are exactly the same thing. And I do not think the subsidy report is over. We have not settled it. We have not concluded the discussion. So, the discussion continues. I always like to look at the positive side of everything. In this particular case, whether willingly or unwillingly, whether with intention to do something really or not, we must thank God that Jonathan allowed those probes to even happen and to such an extent that a lot of things have been thrown wide open both in the subsidy probe and in the oil… more or less, the same thing nau. More or less the same thing.
Why I am saying we should thank God for it is that there is no way of closing those things any more. They are in the public domain. So, the dilemma that the government now has is that they will know how to tell Nigerians whether we have to just agree that government is happy with all that had been exposed. This is the situation now. And I am sure the government is still trying to find a way out.
One would expect and I hope that we do have a government, having started this process, will have the courage to continue it. To continue it in such a way that the consequences of the probe will come out so that our economy will be able to start moving. Just like we were talking about Boko Haram, who killed people, the idea is that it is possible to forgive them if it is the price we must pay for the end to this madness. Now, in the case of Boko Haram, you cannot bring back those who they have killed. So, that makes it difficult all the more.
In the case of those who steal our billions, we can forgive them, not that they can continue to enjoy the billions they stole. We can forgive them and not punish them for stealing in the first place, but we must pursue the money wherever it is and bring it back to this country, so that we can do certain things for the poor people. We are hearing of billions and billions and billions. And if government is looking, for example, at where to spend billions, they should please come to me. I will give them plenty of examples and suggestions and I am sure you will have some too, starting from house for the poor people, hospitals that will work, schools that will give good education, road that could be negotiated, scholarship to the poor children.
There are so many things that we can do with money. So, I think when we make up our minds and we probably, when there is a kind of rational repentance, and we all as a country, decide to forgive those who have been stealing our money provided they bring it back. Whatever we can recover, we recover. And provided we can stop the drain, then we can start moving forward.
You see, the thing about this kind of probe is that whenever you probe, you end up with threat that we are going to deal with them. And of course, those who we will like them to deal with, they will do all they can to protect them. And if those who you are thinking of dealing with happen to be close to those who should be doing the dealing, we are ending up in no way. No move because those who we ar
Source: Sun News
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